Saracens’ Mark McCall and new Harlequins chief Paul Gustard tell Will Macpherson their hopes for the new rugby season

Paul Gustard (left), Mark McCall (right)
Will Macpherson31 August 2018

Standard Sport’s Will Macpherson chats with the old colleagues and friends who are now preparing for a capital rivalry…

Will: You’ve worked together before, then Paul left Saracens for England. Now your paths have crossed again but as rivals, not colleagues. How does that feel?

Mark McCall: I don’t know how Guzzy feels but it really feels like seeing an old friend. I don’t think it matters what clubs we’re at, it’ll always be that way. I think rugby should be that way. Yes, we are going to play each other twice…

Paul Gustard: Three times, hopefully.

MM: Ah, yes. The final, hopefully. Of course, there will be difficult situations but you have to wish each other well. Guzzy was at [Saracens] for a long time, well before I was, and contributed so much to what we do. We want him to do well in whatever he does.

Was Saracens v Harlequins the first fixture you looked out for when handed the list?

PG: No, not at all. We have to play everyone twice. I looked at the first match… that’s the most important. As a club we have no momentum from last season, so we have to start well and generate momentum and belief in the jersey. So, my entire focus is on starting well against Sale, then the week after against Saints, then Bath, then Gloucester and so on.

Mark, when Paul was running your Wolfpack defence at Saracens, did you see him as a guy who would end up in a role like this?

MM: Yes, 100 per cent. I remember having conversations where he would beg for more work. Every day! ‘What else can I do? Recruitment, anything.’ He always had a mind that looked very broadly at the game and the organisation, and he was always going to end up somewhere like this.

Do you expect Harlequins to be stronger this year?

MM: Yep. There’s good raw material there and Guzzy knows how to run an organisation and get the best out of it.

Saracens win a lot. Does the Premiership get harder each year?

MM: It feels like it does at this time of year! I’ve spent all day with [Bristol head coach] Pat Lam, Northampton [director of rugby] Chris Boyd and this guy (points at Gustard), none of whom were around last year. The coaching group seems stronger, the players seem stronger. Like Guzzy said, I’m just thinking Newcastle away [this Sunday]. They looked magic against Leinster in pre-season. But once the grind starts, you can just crack on, take it week by week and you get some rhythm.

PG: I know that for the next week and a half, Mark’s legs will be shaking and he’ll be dead nervous. It’s all we know, it’s under your skin. You never know how you’re going to go.

MM: You think about it for a few weeks and then the real anticipation begins about now. No one knows what will happen this week. As soon as it begins it’ll be more enjoyable but it’ll be draining, too.

Paul, what have you learned in your time away from the Premiership with England?

PG: I’m the new kid on the block now. Everyone else has head coach experience but I don’t. I have ideas about how things could work. I’ve worked under three great guys, in Mark, Brendan [Venter] and Eddie [Jones, left]. They have all achieved a lot. I can bring those experiences together, but I also have my own non-negotiables. My biggest learner from Saracens was about how you treat people, and that’s one thing I’m desperate to get right at Harlequins: treat people right, be true to myself. I’m always going to be learning. I will make mistakes, we all do. If I say the wrong thing, get a training session wrong, or make the wrong choice, it won’t be coming from a bad place.

You have been on both sides of the fence. Is the Premiership’s relationship with England and international rugby functioning smoothly enough?

MM: I can only speak for our club, but we have a good working relationship with England. We work together. We have different aims, so there’s always going to be tension. There has to be, that’s just the way it is. The more collaborative it is, the better. So far with Eddie it has been excellent.

PG: I’ve been on the other side. Since I started at Harlequins, Eddie has been down once. I asked him to come down, to observe training, to see what he thought and what feedback he had for me — what did he see that was going right or wrong. Just feedback from someone who’s very experienced in the game. As Smally [McCall], has spoken about, England’s aim is to win the World Cup, ours is to do well in the Premiership. Somewhere along the way the thinking needs to be aligned, but we are coming at it from opposite ends of the spectrum. I’m yet to experience those needs from England, but as much as we can work with the Union, not against them, the better.

Did you miss the daily grind of club rugby?

PG: England was an unbelievable opportunity. I left an unbelievable club with people I loved and a club that I loved. I didn’t make [the decision] lightly. I left the best job in the world for the best job in the world. I played for England in non-cap games but I never played international rugby, so the opportunity was too good to turn down. But what I realised among some other things, some personal stuff, was that I missed coaching every day. I am better round people, better being busy, better coaching more, and that was a real driver for me.

With the two of you, and the likes of Alex Sanderson coming through, is Saracens a coaching factory?

MM: I don’t know the answer to that. We all got lucky! We just ended up at the right club. I regard myself as very fortunate to end up at Saracens, it was a case of being in the right place at the right time. You get back what you put in.

PG: Brendan changed my role at the club, brought Mark in. A lot of like-minded people were together, who saw something bigger than the game. Like Mark said earlier, that’s exactly how I feel; we saw each other and gave each other a hug. It feels natural. We spent a lot of time together, shared a lot of great memories on and off the field. That was really unique.

I would also add that good coaching is helped by good players. And good coaching can make them great players. The spine of the 2017 Lions team [Owen Farrell, Mako Vunipola, left, Jamie George, George Kruis, Maro Itoje] came through the Saracens academy. They weren’t recruited from all around the world, they were Sarries kids, brought through by Sarries coaches. It’s good coaches, players, environment all aligning. I need to emulate that at Quins.

What are the shared memories that stand out?

MM: There are a lot!

PG: There’s one that we don’t talk about.

MM: What’s that? [Gustard mumbles and shakes his head]. Funnily enough, a lot of them are non-rugby related…

PG: It’s daft thing… staff football. I’m a hopeless footballer.

MM: He’s a very aggressive footballer. I was always happy if he was on my team. On the opposition? Not so much…

PG: I was reckless. But they’re nice memories and we’d always go for a pint afterwards.

Enjoyable things with good people, and that made it easy for people to travel along. There were loads of key take-home messages for me from my time there. It’s all learning, when you’re immersed in that kind of culture.

I have to try to deliver a version of this that will work for Harlequins. We can’t be Saracens, but there are things we can learn from them, from [Exeter] Chiefs, from England, from whoever, and try to make it work the best we can at Quins.

He’s going to be good at this isn’t he, Mark?

MM: He sure is.

Will’s season predictions


Champions
Saracens should make it four titles in five years. Summer changes have been minimal, because not a great deal needed improving.

Relegated
Worcester. Bristol look classy enough to thrive, whereas Worcester have overhauled their squad seemingly with their only ambition being survival.

Surprise package
Gloucester finished seventh last season and have recruited well from both home and abroad. Danny Cipriani can spark a backline full of pace, plus they have added South African grunt up front.

Best player
Cipriani’s replacement at Wasps, Lima Sopoaga, is one of a range of outstanding Kiwis new to the league. Bristol have Charles Piutau and Steven Luatua, but Sopoaga could really give Wasps a clinical edge. 

England breakthrough
Michael Rhodes is England-qualified now and a player of class and experience who has been superb for Saracens for a number of years. Very much in Eddie Jones’s plans. 

Heineken Cup winners
Someone Irish. Probably Leinster.

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